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gotwind
Forum Admin
United Kingdom
755 Posts |
 Posted - 13/09/2007 : 21:17:18
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I've had a very interesting email from a guy named Pete (windymiller on this forum)
He has sent me some good images of how he uses a 36v bicycle hub motor as the basis of some of the P.V.C bladed projects getting up to 10 amps@12 volts (120 watts) - I am awaiting his permission to post them here.
They are certainly not a cheap option to buy new and I believe they do use brushes - but if you know of any scrapped ones available, grab them.
Keep your eyes out guys.
Ben.
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gotwind
Forum Admin
United Kingdom
755 Posts |
Posted - 13/09/2007 : 21:46:32
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Permission granted - here are Pete's photos and his wording:
Thought you might enjoy a couple of pictures of my projects.
The 12 bladed generator works quite well. It is a 36vdc electric brushed scooter hub...not internally geared and produces very usefull power at relatively low power. Dont confuse this hub with the other types of scooter motors which require high rpm to produce useable power,this is literally a full scooter wheel/hub bolted to a home made blade set.It easily made 20v and 10 amps the other day at approx 300-350 rpm.
Yes they work very well and yes theres no vibration due to being very well balanced. Yes they spin very fast.
Enjoy ....windymiller aka pete
The Futures Green - Getwind of it. |
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BushWhacker
Junior Member
Canada
254 Posts |
Posted - 14/09/2007 : 06:09:32
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So is this an electric scooter (motor?) hub? I have seen electric mini bikes in the last couple of years in Canada but they were set up as an electric motor with a primary sprocket attached and chain drive to the rear wheel. I'm confused.
Cheers!
BW
Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler. - Albert Einstein |
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windymiller
New Member
United Kingdom
53 Posts |
Posted - 14/09/2007 : 08:43:53
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| Hi bush wacker..Yes your right.It originately had a chain sprocket to aid power to the bike from the cyclist.All removed now ,just the hub/wheel remaining.Constructing the turbine was very straight forward.....couldnt get simpler.ie B&Q rain guttering plywood, nuts and bolts, a bit of welding....attach it all together!.Already dc output, no rectifiers to incorporate,instant power even in light breezes.Its linked upto 12v halogen lamp at the moment which easily lighs up.The whole set up is eventually going to power the coming christmas led lights,which will be hung up around the house.See ebay solar led string lights.(100 led lights ,solar panel,battery all for 15 quid inc delivery).These really do work!.Can leave them on all night no problem.Good news is the battery can be charged up using the sturmey archer dyno hub after rectification.The battery pack is less than 6v.Just thought id mention it...cheers windymiller. |
Edited by - windymiller on 14/09/2007 09:12:37 |
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BushWhacker
Junior Member
Canada
254 Posts |
Posted - 15/09/2007 : 08:28:21
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Thanks Windymiller, I'm smacking my forehead now. I never thought of that angle. We have electric/pedal assist bikes in Canada but from the words of a "Electric Bike Guru" the regenerative part of the bike doesn't start charging batteries until the bike is going 30 kph.
So 2.3 meters per wheel revolution into 30 kph = 217.4 rpm cut in. I really don't recall if the bike ran on 12 or 24 volt. I'll make a few calls in the AM and see how high a voltage hub I can get. A 48 volt hub would be very cool!
Update: I have located 36, 48, and possibly 72 volt Ebike hubs. Emails are sent and I'll wait for replies.
Thanks again,
BW
Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler. - Albert Einstein |
Edited by - BushWhacker on 15/09/2007 09:58:30 |
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windymiller
New Member
United Kingdom
53 Posts |
Posted - 15/09/2007 : 12:14:12
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| Hi bush whacker,i can see the reason for being confused with your first reply.I too spend a lot of time thinking and calculaing and trying to work things out.I figured that a 36v scooter motor/wheel would spin somewhere in the region of a few hundred rpm flat out suppling 36v to the motor.So knowing that you can spin the hub with a decent sized wind turbine(hopefully around a few hundred rpm) i would acheive a decent voltage/amps as useable power.The hub cost me 30 quid a la Ebay inc postage...well chuffed with its performance.Im in the process of rigging a electric water pump to the turbine to transfer water from a 1000 litre schults container to another.I use them to supply water to the house toilet system.I live in a bungalow so the pressure head of water to the toilet cistern is created by gravity..no pump involved.It works very well.ps got other projects if your interested.....As you are a thinking member... would you be interested in a self challenge?. The reason im asking you is because ive failed to find a bicycle wheel made into a wind turbine using cheap available materials posted on the net!.so i made one myself...wont show you just yet ill give a chance to think,try and experiment yourself...it is possible even with the spokes in the way,and beleive me they spin very fast and are very stable and take about a couple of hours to make. if your up for it let me know...its all good fun .Like wise any other members reading my message ,join in with the challenge and let me know!!!.Im off "t " shed...see yer later windymiller |
Edited by - windymiller on 19/09/2007 19:30:22 |
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BushWhacker
Junior Member
Canada
254 Posts |
Posted - 15/09/2007 : 19:12:25
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Hi Windmilller,
I just got off the phone with the owner of an Ebike store about 1/2 hour ago (I'm 7 hours behind you on the clock). Ken (the store owner) is also very interested in alternative energy and has some hobby projects that he wants to build. We talked far too long on the phone but I was invited to his store to do some testing on various 36 volt Ebike hubs. My back of the envelope calculations gave me an 85 rpm cutin speed (13 volts). The cost of a new hub is roughly $250 CDN (125 Pounds?) and I believe the hub weighs about 9 lbs with an output of about 350 watts @ about 215 or 220 RPM.
There are 48 and 72 volt hubs available and I will discover more when I talk to Ken who will provide me with spec sheets and the printout of the data we generate from his wheel & hub testing dynometer. We are both pretty "pumped" (a western colony term for excited) about this meeting and I think it will take a few hours and a few cups of coffee before we begin to exhaust our idea and information exchange. I'll post the highlights in the next day or two.
I'm not in this for competition, I'm in it for the free flow of information concerning alternative energy. I look at it as the development of something bigger that benefits us all. We are to AE, what Linux was to Windows 15 years ago, just a bunch of guys (and I believe a saw a post or two by a gal in here somewhere) playing with the concept and sharing our experiences be they failures or successes.
Thanks Windymiller, you, like all of the contributers here have given my grey matter a little poke, and I just love problem solving on the mechanical side of this whole wind power concept. :-)
Cheers!
BW
Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler. - Albert Einstein |
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windymiller
New Member
United Kingdom
53 Posts |
Posted - 15/09/2007 : 19:48:06
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| Thanks for your reply,im pleased ive captured your imagination..If your like me ,you,ve probably spent hours trauling through ebay for that perfect cheap alternative generator.I knew id stumbled on something good to use,when i did my first test with the motor.I riggeg up a halogen bulb and rotated the wheel...it lit up like a spot light.Also shorting the wires out produced very high resistance whilst turning the wheel by hand.Your calculations seem better than my wind turbine.I do agree that that the higher voltage motors may be better at acheiving a lower rpm cut in charging speed.I think possibly my motor is rated beweem 200-250 watts.'"Designed" operating voltage of 36volts.It is a big lump,hence thats why i put 60" blades on it to turn it.Evidently my feelings are that if this motor is to be used as a wind generator,i feel it would be ideally suited to large sail type blades...a la American water pumps.This way more power can be channelled even with low wind speeds!!!.What do you think....regards windymiller. |
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gotwind
Forum Admin
United Kingdom
755 Posts |
Posted - 15/09/2007 : 19:52:35
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Good work Bushwacker.
The 85 rpm cutin speed is impressive - VAWT territory....
They are certainly not cheap hubs to buy new, but secondhand bought cheaply or even scrapped (but working) ones would be cool.
Also, try and find out if they are brushed or brushless, the latter being the best - less to wear out.
And 'feel' for any cogging i.e lumpiness when slowly rotating - the less the better.
Bit more here - 86% efficiency is a little optimistic by these Chinese manufacturers I think..
http://cnjzdj.en.alibaba.com/product/50098292/50550366/DC_Hub_Motors/48V_500W_Electric_Hub_Motor.html
Have fun - it sounds like you will....
Ben.
The Futures Green - Getwind of it. |
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windymiller
New Member
United Kingdom
53 Posts |
Posted - 15/09/2007 : 20:55:45
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| Hi ben and viewers ,seems like ive "generated" alot of excitement .Im glad im able to contribute in some way....Plant an idea,who knows what will happen...betterthings might come, hopefully.Love your site...as bush whacker says it gets the old grey matter working...ps...Just a thought,ive realised i might be the first 12 bladed scooter motor wind generator in existence....Thanks ben for posting the pics showing it to others ...cheers windymiller |
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BushWhacker
Junior Member
Canada
254 Posts |
 Posted - 16/09/2007 : 06:17:36
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Hi All,
OK on this post I'm only going to touch on some of the subjects discussed this afternoon cause I'm not in the mood to write a novel. These hubs are made in China. Ken's ability to get parts and better pricing varies from make to make. The 36 volt Crystal Lite (brush type) is his best deal hub for my application at $275 CDN (about 141 GBP today).
The axle of the hub is designed to remain stationary (input/output wires attached to the axle bolted in the front forks) which lends itself to Windymiller's design (HAWT) very well but on the surface does not look good for VAWT's. I think I have already cracked that nut. I'll pick up a hub and find out.
The brushless hubs have to turn upwards of 600 rpm before they start to generate power. I'll be getting a brush unit as Ken assures me that replacement brushes are available.
Hang on to your hats kids! The 36 volt hub will readily accept 48 volts input, some folks have taken to running 2, 36 volt battery packs in series for a whopping 72 volts and about 65 kph. Ken told me about one customer who is running 2, 48 volt battery packs in series netting 96 volts and a 80 or 90 kph top speed (that's 577 rpm for 80 kph). The 36 volt brushed motor is doing just fine. I don't think over speed and/or melt down is a problem for some reason??? BTW I got 15.7 volts unloaded output by giving a 26" rim a quick whip by hand.
My math in a previous post...
26" rim + 1.5" x 2 (for tire profile) = 29" diameter x (pi) 3.1416 = 91.1" per revolution 91.1/39.4 = 2.31 meters per revolution.
32 kph = 32,000 M ph/60 = 533 M pm. 533/2.31 = 231 rpm for 32kph @ 36 volts and 400 watts
231/36 = 6.42 rpm per volt
6.42 x 13(volts)= 83.46 rpm for 13 volts, YEAH BABY! cutin!!!
Please shoot holes in my math if you can. I'd appreciate eating some crow rather than $275.
I did a fair bit of rounding in the above calculation so +/- 5% is not out of the question but I didn't want to go to 6 decimal points on each calculation. Ya, I know I'm lazy and sloppy.
I think that Windymiller's hub specs are a bit different than the hub I am quoting.
I think I are gonna git me one of them thar hubs tomorrow.
And Windymiller, quit poking my brain for a bit. It's starting to hurt!
Cheers!
BW
Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler. - Albert Einstein |
Edited by - BushWhacker on 16/09/2007 06:39:52 |
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windymiller
New Member
United Kingdom
53 Posts |
Posted - 16/09/2007 : 09:58:46
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To add to the excitement of your further research,i confirm there is vertually no "cogging" at start up on this hub.Ive also had the hub apart to check the condition of the brushes and commutator before assembling as a wind turbine.The brushes are very similar looking to the ones fitted to washing machine motors.You can buy them for a few pounds.
If your interested in something that generates a" bit "of power at relatively low rpm, for a very respectable price,visit ebay....stepper motors/traction motors....seller renewablecomponents ,Price 47 quid plus postage.Will need rectifing to suit your requirements.Potential 1000 watts at a feww hundred rpm , no brushes to wear out....perfect!.My feeling is its probably better than the brushed scooter hub.Im sure you could contact them for advice before buying.
cheers ...windymiller |
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gotwind
Forum Admin
United Kingdom
755 Posts |
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frankineto
Starting Member
United Kingdom
17 Posts |
Posted - 16/09/2007 : 16:15:36
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have bought one , let you know how it fares .
might be worth a try
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gotwind
Forum Admin
United Kingdom
755 Posts |
Posted - 16/09/2007 : 16:27:01
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Yes that would be very useful Frankineto.
The ebay posting says:
'Each phase is supplied with a 2 wire connection, allowing flexibility in the way you decide to control the motors'
It may be a simple internal rewiring that is necessary to make them suitable for our application, e.g from Delta to Star figuration?
At 9Kg (approx 20lb)for the 1000w version it is fairly heavy and would need a substantial blade, frame and tower setup.
The Futures Green - Getwind of it. |
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frankineto
Starting Member
United Kingdom
17 Posts |
Posted - 16/09/2007 : 16:33:50
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well , i know about star and delta configuring and like you said , it might need some rewiring .
I wonder if i did a few modifications internally - like change to better magnet etc , it might work better .
could you explain the cogging issue - as there might be a way round it .
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Interesting new source of possible wind generators
