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Del
Junior Member
United Kingdom
368 Posts |
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gotwind
Forum Admin
United Kingdom
843 Posts |
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fungus
Moderator
290 Posts |
Posted - 21/09/2007 : 23:07:57
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A few thoughts;
I'd pretty much stay away from any converted car alts; they dont perform too well and they need tons of rpm to do anything even if they've got permanent magnets and rewind etc; they may cut in at low rpm but that doesnt mean that they'll be making power. Car alt frames arent too good either for mounting to imho. the Futurenergy or the renewablecomponents one would probablty be pretty good, the renewable components one has 6 wires coming out; in delta it will work on 12v fine I think. The chinese ones are 'ok'; they make lots of noise but the blade profile can be modified to help with that. |
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Del
Junior Member
United Kingdom
368 Posts |
Posted - 22/09/2007 : 01:16:21
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Thanks Ben & Fungus,
On the Far East import turbines that Navitron distribute (and everyone else), I think I'd like some customer reports on the build quality and longevity before I invested. For less money i think i could do a lot better by using an off-the-shelf generator. Also the 500W turbine is a 24V unit so not ideal as i would have to run a 24V solar system and run 24V inverters too.
I've had a quick look at the navitron site and I would also like to see what kind of volt / amp outputs you get for a given rpm. I think i will speak to Ivan to get some more info though.
On the converted car alternators - take another look at the windblue power link Fungus and the power output chart. Not loads of rpm to get cut in (only 150rpm) and only needs 300rpm to get a rather healthy 7A. That sounds very good to me. And £137 delivered to the UK.
Not sure what you mean by "arent too good either for mounting to imho". What's imho? With the issue of being not affected by the rain and having two nice big mounting holes they do look very tempting for the DIY wind turbine builder.
More comments and thoughts from everyone extremely welcomed.
Thanks all
Regards
Del.
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Peter Williams
New Member
United Kingdom
53 Posts |
Posted - 22/09/2007 : 09:47:05
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Del, have you thought about the lister cs/ waste vegetable route?
Peter |
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Del
Junior Member
United Kingdom
368 Posts |
Posted - 22/09/2007 : 11:26:02
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Lateral thinking Peter, I like it.
I hadn't actually considered it but my initial thoughts are that it would not be a goer for me on three counts.
They cost a lot to buy (if you can find one)
Getting it to the Pyrenees wound not be particularly easy.
I would have to feed it veg oil (WVO / SVO) which would cost me money.
Still, I do like to think differently so thanks for the idea.
Cheers
Del. |
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Peter Williams
New Member
United Kingdom
53 Posts |
Posted - 22/09/2007 : 14:09:38
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Del,
they cost about £250-350 (a guy down the road from me collects and sells them) or £600 brand new Indian import, They weigh about a half a tonne so you'll need a trailer or chinook helicopter, oh and they last bit you would need to open up your own fish & chip shop in the Pyrenees.
Sound like a feasible solution to me! I'll just get my coat.
Peter
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daveb
New Member
United Kingdom
52 Posts |
Posted - 23/09/2007 : 01:32:34
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| Hi del ime new to the forum and a bit "green" to some of the subjects in the above comments,but for the last two years i have been experimenting and trying to get an alternative energy project of the ground.My original reasons for this was plain and simply because i was sick of being ripped off by the utilities of my first ideas was as with most on this forum to buy a DC motor or alternator put blades on it and sit back with free power,but as we all now know its not as simple as that,and as the months and years have gone by with a £5 here £20 there and now as is being discussed on another part of this forum import cost from other countries i am in all honesty wondering with what i have spent over the years on this and that if it wouldn't have been cheaper quicker and more efficient to have bought a commercial system in the first place and had it running and paying for its self for the past two years.I know the self satisfaction wouldn't be there but it depends what you want and if you really are "and i really envy you"looking for self sufficiency some home made job is not going to give you the reliability you need,and in all honesty after running a small solar panel experiment for a few months now i am beginning to wonder if they are not a better alternative to a homemade turbine with a unpredictable output because even in cloudy weather they give a more constant output and an easier and cheaper voltage regulation.Sorry about going on a bit,one last thing you say your going to the Pyrenees i can see some logic in that, thinking of high wind speeds possible running water but the down side is fewer hours of day light an sever winter conditions and if your thinking of growing some of your own food a very short growing season. personally i would be more inclined to a coastal position its been my experience over many years that there seems to be a wind in one direction or the other at the coast and there's still the possibility of running water after all that's where it all ends up. Daveb |
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Del
Junior Member
United Kingdom
368 Posts |
Posted - 23/09/2007 : 15:45:36
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Thank you Daveb for your thoughts and comments, they are really and truly appreciated.
All the off-the-shelf generators I am considering (except one) you can purchase in a fully built wind turbine so the units I'm considering are tried and tested units that produce decent power and are reliable.
The reason I would prefer to make my own turbine is purely down to cost (mostly) and personal satisfaction and I can see no reason at all to buy a ready made item that may not be as robust or as repairable as something that i could design and build.
I totally agree with you on the subject of it being all too easy to spend a bit here and there and it all add up and still not provide you with a finished product that works as you first thought. I started with using a couple of stepper motors for my first two turbines, but other than providing me with some education and experience all the money I spent has not been balanced out by saving me any electricity. My Ametek 30 based turbine has though. It cost me about £65 for the motor and about £5 in other stuff , everything else was free or I already had lying around. It is a little over-engineered however and I would build a lighter version if I was going to do it again - still that would mean buying different materials rather than using what's free and lying around doing nothing. So for £70 I have a 100W turbine that has spun at just over 1000rpm (last weekend) and is mounted 15 feet up on a pole and uses no guy ropes! Built to last!
The self sufficiency thing is a definite. I will not be able to produce everything and I have to maximise what I can produce and sell / swap my excesses for other things that I cannnot produce.
I'm also experimenting with solar power (see the solar panel thread I started) and am quite impressed with it but it's only producing anything useful when the sun shines and that's a max of 8 hours a day. The other 16 hours or when it's cloudy it becomes an expensive orlament.
If I'm lucky enough to have a stream on my future property that would allow me to manufacture a water wheel and that would give me all my power in one device.
The area of the Pyrenees that I'm going to will be in the foothills / valleys so will be free from the severe winter conditions that will be at altitude. The fruit / veg / etc will be fine as most of the year will be hot and sunny and there's only snow on the ground for a few weeks over the winter period and by then all crops will be in.
Much of my decision to go to Pyrenees is to go and be in the mountains. And i'm addicted to the French 'quality' of life way of living (so one of the French mountain ranges were the only options for me). I've checked out the Alps, Massive Central, Jura and Vosges mountain ranges as well as the Pyrenees. There was no contest. The Pyrennes is the place to be for me. It wouldn't affect my decision if there wasn't a breath of wind there but thankfully it's ok and will be fine to operate a couple of turbines as well as a bit of solar power.
I'd still like EVERYONE to take a few minutes to look that the five original generators I posted details on and tell me what their thoughts are on each of them and if they are aware of anyone having used them and spoke of them on any other websites. Personally I really like the look of the Windblue power generators. Power from 150rpm and and 7 amps at 300rpm and all for £137 delivered. My thinking is that a couple of these will give me useable power the majority of 24 hours a day every day.
Bonsoir mes amis
Salut
Del.
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daveb
New Member
United Kingdom
52 Posts |
Posted - 24/09/2007 : 17:51:43
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Hi Del just been looking at the windblue alternator looks impresive at first sight"12v@150 rpm"but when you look a little closer 350v@2500rpm and 15 amps@2000rpm achieving these rpms unless you live in a cyclone area will be just about impossible.Bens"gotwind"updated blades are for speeds up to 1000rpm and i would be happy at that so if you half the 15amps@2000rpm to 7.5-7amps@1000rpm its realy not much better than some of the reported 8amps acheived by some of 30v AMETEKS.The only advantage i can see is that its brushless and the 3 phase AC output reducing the needed cable diameter.
Daveb |
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ghurd
Junior Member
USA
304 Posts |
Posted - 24/09/2007 : 20:36:16
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I am not much of a blade guy, but those numbers sound completely crazy to me. A windmill oxymoron?
Cut-in at 150RPM indicated some long blades (2+ meters?), or VERY slow smaller blades.
Quoting numbers at 1000rpm sounds like short and very fast blades.
Quoting 15A at 2000rpm sounds like very short, very fast blades, like under 1 meter.
The smaller blades will stall. The longer blades will explode.
And 12V cut-in at 150rpm, but only 7.5A at 1000rpm, means a lot of turns of smaller (high resistance) wire. I would expect the inefficiencies would melt the coil wire insulation before very long.
I do not see how those numbers can be reconciled in a decent windmill.
I do not see how those numbers can be reconciled in a CRAPPY windmill!
The thing sounds like a giant expensive stepper motor.
An Ametek sounds better.
Almost any PM DC brush motor that can supply 10A at a more reasonable curve sounds better. Maybe something brushless, PM, and DC(GE ECM or F&P?)is worth a look.
But like I said, I'm not a blade guy.
G-
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Del
Junior Member
United Kingdom
368 Posts |
Posted - 24/09/2007 : 22:33:44
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Hi Daveb,
Many thanks for looking at this and taking the time to comment.
I'd forget any data stats above 1000rpm as they are purely achedemic and do not realte to what happens in the real world.
The 150rpm cut in is nice and so should give me quite a few hours of charge a day and I'm thinking it's better to get 5 amps + 15 to 20 hours a day (maybe more) than 20 amps for a few minutes a day when the wind blows hard.
The output is not a straight line but a curve so although it theoretically produces 15 amps at 2000 rpm the output is not halved at half the rpm. It actually produces 7.5 amps at around 300 to 400 rpm which I think is jolly impressive. Although the peak output is relatively low I think that this generator will produce decent power most of the day every day. Take a look at the chart below and ignore all the readings above 1000rpm.
The Ametek 30 I've got at the moment does get up to 8.7 amps (shorted) but only cuts in at about 388 rpm see link http://www.tlgwindpower.com/Ametek30data.htm
and needs 800rpm to get 7.2 amps whereas the windblue power unit does this at 300 to 400 rpm.
Granted the Ametek 30 is about the best non-purpose built unit you can buy and to build one for £75 ish is fantastic value but I need something that will produce power more of the day.
What do you think of the other units?
I do like the Futurenergy unit but I'm concerned that maybe the massive amperage output at high rpms will shorten the life of my battery bank. I think I'd rather trickle charge my batteries most of the day than dump massive charges into them every now and again.
Cheers
Del. |
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Del
Junior Member
United Kingdom
368 Posts |
Posted - 24/09/2007 : 22:44:16
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Hi Ghurd,
The blades that windblue power use on their units look about two feet long so fairly normal for a small output turbine.
All the figures above 1000rpm is totally pointless. My blades have gone above 1000rpm but I don't really want them to go any faster as it's dangerous and pointless. I use my own design and it's a five bladed set-up so I have plenty of swept area to catch the wind so it spins in light winds but the length is only about 18 inches so the tip speed doesn't limit the top speed as much as a longer blade set-up would.
Please read my reply to Daveb above - the unit doesn't produce 7.5 amps at 1000rpm - it does it at 300 to 400 rpm (see the original link for a better view of the output chart).
A unit that starts at 150rpm and gives 7.5 amps at 300 to 400 rpm sounds good to me.
Any thoughts on any of the other units?
Cheers
Del. |
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ghurd
Junior Member
USA
304 Posts |
Posted - 25/09/2007 : 18:46:26
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They all sound awful expensive to me. I understand why, but they still don't look much better than a lot of far less expensive options. 100W isn't that much.
I read you can get 5A at 12V out of a 24V lorrie(sp?) radiator fan motor. And a few amps at 12V out of the 24V heater blower motor. But I never found one on this side of the pond, so I'm not sure.
"LG" brand is marketing some very efficient washing machines here, with brushless PM 3-ph motors. I expect it would cost less and make more power than some of those rebuilt alternators. Not sure about the mounting, etc.
Some of my friends like to figure the PMA at 4W to 8W for £1. I was just a bit shocked at the prices.
G- |
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daveb
New Member
United Kingdom
52 Posts |
Posted - 25/09/2007 : 21:10:57
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The RPM figures are,nt mine there what windblue quote,the only reason i use the figure 1000RPM is to point out that windblue give figures of 15amp at 2000 RPM,and i still believe that speeds like that in an average wind would be hard to acheive and 1000 RPM are more realistic.I didnt see the output chart i simply halved the rpm and the amps.
Daveb |
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Del
Junior Member
United Kingdom
368 Posts |
Posted - 26/09/2007 : 09:58:34
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Hi Ghurd & Daveb,
Awful expensive - hmmm, maybe. I thought £100 for the unit and £37 for delivery was pretty good and is the cheapest of the five unit's I'm considering. If you know of any other option I could consider for less than £137 please let me know.
I don't know about lorry heater fan motors or lorry radiator fan motors. Certainly on cars these motots are tiny and spin at mega rpms. I can't see why a lorry would be much different but who knows.
Very interesting about the LG PM washing machine motors, they sound similar to the Aussie F&P motors that are apparently easy to convert to use as a generator.
Hi Daveb - personally I wouldn't even look as high as 1000 rpm on any turbine output data. Physically you could turn any motor at 2000, 10,000 or even a 100,000+ rpms and take volt and amp data but it's pointless. The volts should be proportate to the rpm so can be halved etc but the amps are a curve so cannot be halved etc. For example, you may get 15 amps at 100,000 rpm but you may also get the same amps at 1000rpm as that what it maxes out at. Personally I prefer to look at the output performance at rpms that I know my turbine will spin at most of the day and that's nowhere near 1000rpm, so even if it gave 100amps at 1000rpm I wouldn't neccessarily be interested unless it had a low cut in and produced decent amps at 300 / 400 / 500 / 600 rpms (real world).
Ok, let wrap this up - A CHALLENGE TO EVERYONE READING THIS; if you can find a ready made generator that's better in the real world than the windblue power unit i.e. will produce 12V at 150rpm and will give 7.5 amps at 300 to 400 rpm and doesn't cost massively more than the £137 (delivered) then I'll buy one immediately and send the informant some delicious Pontefract cakes.
Thank you all
Regards
Del. |
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Topic |
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Which "off the shelf" option to go for?
Posted - 21/09/2007 : 16:46:43