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hillbilly
Starting Member
United Kingdom
22 Posts |
 Posted - 01/04/2008 : 11:08:28
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I'm interested in building an American type windmill, the type you see in the old West. I have found lots of pictures and information, history etc, but I can't seem to find details of the Headgear.
I know that they have a furling mechanism, and some have a mechanism to alter the angle of the vanes but none of the info so far shows how it’s done. Also the gear system to translate the horizontal to vertical would be interesting, from what I've seen so far it seems to be geared up, i.e. the vertical shaft runs faster than the horizontal.
Normally these are used to pump water, but it would be nice to be able to play with generators at the base of the tower, rather than rebuilding the headgear as on a modern mill to experiment with.
Yes I know they are not efficient and more work constructing same, but they look good and look as if they mean business, also "she who must be obeyed" likes them. nuff said. ?
The point of all this is, can anyone point me at a website that has the above details so that I can ponder at leisure my madness to even consider this project.
Regards
Hillbilly
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windymiller
New Member
United Kingdom
57 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2008 : 15:50:30
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Must admit ...ive always had a soft spot for the big american wind pumps
They're the mules of the windmill world....been around for over a hundred years.
The normal function is to convert rotational movement into reciprocating movement....designed purposely to draw water from deep underground.
Ive not spotted any with a rotating centre shaft...am sure its possible though!.
Cheers WM |
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tecon
Starting Member
USA
36 Posts |
 Posted - 01/04/2008 : 17:03:19
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Hillbilly,
I wish I would have known earlier you were interested, I would have snapped a photo Saturday of a small water pumper built in the 50's still in operation.
(I am using googles online conversion tool from standard to metric, hopefully it is correct).
It doesn't furl, but does have a brake. The horizontal shaft on this one drives a very long (several splices) vertical piston about 3" diameter (7.62 cm?) in a simple up and down motion. Imagine placing 1 bolt at 12 on a wall clock, now turn that cw (or ccw) with a vertical shaft attached, that shaft simply pushes water up from the well.
A guestimate on the diameter of the blades is aproximately 5 feet (1.524 meters?), but I am sure my guestimate is quite conservative as generally they are very large.
The windmill produces about 1 to 1.5 gallons a minute (3.78 litre to 5.67 litre?)
They still make them and sell them around here
http://www.doublelwindmills.com
Neat for sure!
Tim |
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BushWhacker
Junior Member
Canada
255 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2008 : 01:44:24
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Hi hillbilly;
"Also the gear system to translate the horizontal to vertical would be interesting, from what I've seen so far it seems to be geared up, i.e. the vertical shaft runs faster than the horizontal."
I think Conical gears would be your best bet.
Cheers!
BW
Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler. - Albert Einstein |
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ghurd
Junior Member
USA
274 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2008 : 06:34:25
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A UK hillbilly? :-)
There are far too many variations for 1 website.
The American type windmill isn't as inefficient as it may seem. That's why they are still being made.
48 fast blades is stupid. 3 slow blades is stupid.
Many blades at a slow speed is something similar to 3 blades at a high speed. The difference related to extractable power is not very large.
High speed 'efficiency' is often related to speed.
More speed means less cost in the alternator (magnets, copper, weight).
High speed means more losses in blade air drag.
Low speed means more losses in almost everything else.
Everything else is expensive.
Faster is cheaper. That's why most modern mills have 3 blades.
The headgear would depend on the purpose. And conditions at the site.
I have seen BW's gears, and crank shafts to a piston with a balancing weight (oil well teeter-totter-pump weight?). And another I can't explain.
A windmill good for 1W at 10MPH is different than a windmill for 100W at 10MPH.
And a windmill for 10 gallon per minute at 10MPH is MUCH different than a windmill for 20 gallons per minute at 20MPH.
Know what I mean? (cube square law)
It would be a lot easier to have a low RPM alternetor, figure what needs done, then make the windmill.
Building alternators to suit the windmill is a lot more... "time consuming"?
Most have manual furling. I figure most self-stalled, or just won't go fast enough to explode.
Most I see are permanently manualy furled, and will never be used again.
Some are un-furled when needed.
Hope something in there helped,
G-
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windymiller
New Member
United Kingdom
57 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2008 : 10:08:14
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I think these wind pumps are under estimated here.
We tend to visulize only the amount of water the mill has managed to bring to the surface as being the work done.
Ever wondered how heavy the pumping rod must weigh (can be 100ft +)and the head of water it must lift up on every stroke....its more than you think.
Overall i think its a safer rig to utlize and easier to construct for mass production.(angleiron /flat steel sheet/couple of gears.....greasegun!!!)
Ever thought of how much time it takes to fabricate a modern wind generator blade (commercial type)with fancy blade construction.!!!!!.
Got to keep things simple for the masses.
I think ...possibly (not sure) that thinking of using a crownwheel on the mill rotor ,directly driving the bevel gear on the vertical shaft will cause problems.
The reaction of the mill (head) is to try and rotate around the vertical shaft bevel gear....not the otherway round...,
It all depends on how much energy is needed to rotate the vertical shaft/motor.
Cheers WM
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MattM
New Member
USA
84 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2008 : 14:12:04
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Don't forget the weight of the water in the line. They lift the water inches at a time. The efficiency doesn't taper off to nil at 30-odd feet like a syphon pump would.
Go Huskers! |
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Mertz
Starting Member
USA
42 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2008 : 20:50:47
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I live in wheat country and see many of these everyday. Most are furled. The have manual crank at the base that furls the vane. They don't spin very fast. There is one in our area that is a reproduction that is being used as a wind generator. I don't see it spinning very often and it has a high tower.
A friend of mine has one and has told me that it wouldn't make a good wind generator. I would imagine that it would have lots of torque and coult be geared up to produce good rpms however the reproduction version doesn't seem to do that well. There is also a wind power shop in my area and has a couple of versions of the same blade system that require a lot of wind to spin.
I personally would like to have one of the windmills and I would try to adapt it to generate power. The best thing about them is that they look cool.
Mertz |
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gotwind
Forum Admin
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2008 : 21:18:12
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Interesting.
My only experience of the Amrican style multi-blade turbine was a display feature at the Centre of Alternative Technology in Wales U.K.
http://www.cat.org.uk/ Well worth a visit by the way.
It was many years ago, using maybe a 12 ft diameter multi-blade prop, it's vertical reciprocating power shaft was connected to two seats that had 2 people sat on.
The torque was definatly available, as it lifted and lowered the seats with people seated (in a controlled manner) effortlessly in a light breeze - I tried to physicaly stop it, but couldn't...
Hope this makes sense.
Ben.
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BushWhacker
Junior Member
Canada
255 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 03:27:29
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I think what hillbilly is shooting (please correct me if I am wrong) for is the difference between a GM 5.7 liter (350 cid V8) and a Caterpillar 15.2 (928 cid inline 6) liter diesel. The diesel turns much slower but has much more torque available (344 lb/ft vs. 1700 lb/ft). Through gearing (with friction losses of course) the RPM of the generator input shaft can be turned up to generate usable power.
It's just thinking outside the box, which is a good thing IMHO. If we all thought the same it would be a very boring world.
Cheers!
BW
Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler. - Albert Einstein |
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hillbilly
Starting Member
United Kingdom
22 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 14:29:55
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I'm glad torque has been mentioned, it’s something that has crossed my mind frequently. I was stunned when a TV program (Fred Dibbner) mentioned in passing that his steamroller was 10 horsepower? nowadays we would consider that pathetic, but when you consider the load they pulled (albeit slowly) than it can only be by producing considerable torque (or does somebody know better ?).
The other word that also passes my mind is efficiency; wind is free so why do we concern ourselves so much with efficiency. The old machines were hardly efficient (OK some were) but their construction enabled them to last for years and that to my mind is possibly more environmentally friendly than for example changing your car etc every few years, even though the old one used a little more fuel? (sorry a bit of a tangent there).
The point I think I am making is that perhaps there is some benefit in making sturdier slower mills with plenty of torque though less efficient perhaps. One benefit I can think of is that it should be safer since the mill is not subject to potential high-speed blades flying around, and that together with sturdier construction may delay the inevitable accident that brings in the bureaucrats.
Regards
Hillbilly |
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windymiller
New Member
United Kingdom
57 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2008 : 16:30:46
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To carry on the line of thought....
Ever wondered how fast a water wheel turns?.....people use generators on them,dont they!!!
So why not a big multiblade rig!!!!.
As many members know there are some decent brushless motors out there that generate good wattage at reletively low rpm.(see Ebay)
Ive got a feeling Hillbillys idea is qute feesable.
Just a thought
cheers WM |
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ghurd
Junior Member
USA
274 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2008 : 21:51:22
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WM,
I'm happy this is still going.
That's what I said, but you said it much better.
Bigger (like overshot water wheels or American water pumper windmills) have some room for gearing losses.
Too bad you UK guys don't have more 1/2 to 1 HP GE ECM furnace or A/C motors. Bloody efficient for low power at low speed.
(I got to say "bloody" again.  )
Emerson (sp?) and LG make some motors about the same as the GE brand ECMs. Washing machines, furnace or A/C, and someone told me a dish washer.
Hillbilly,
Torque, speed, and power, and watts are all completely related.
Usually the RPM is calculated, then the cost of copper wire and giant magnets for something suitable. Then the choice for high speed is the only choice left. We are not Bill Gates.
"10 HP steamroller... albeit slowly". Yup. Simple math.
A good intro...
http://www.vettenet.org/torquehp.html
"Give me a place to stand on, and I can move the earth." (Archimedes Lever)-Archimedes Circa 250BC
It would take quite a while for a 75KG man to get the Earth to 500 RPM, though the principle is sound according to Newtonian physics.
Fast and no load doesn't mean any power is available.
Slow doesn't mean power is not avaialable.
G-
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Topic |
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American Windmill
